manna?

A vintage faith community in downtown Holland, Michigan

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manna? is a vintage faith community that meets in downtown Holland, Michigan at the corner of 9th and Central.
Our Sunday service is at 10:00 AM.
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Raw Faith: You Can’t Handle It

Posted by Mike Boyink

So God found me and impressed upon me the need to learn how to be in relationship with other people—not my strong suit up to that point. It seemed like church was the place I should do that. We became regular church attendees. Just like that. I never missed a Sunday. Like I always do with things I’m passionate about, I jumped in hard and fast. We hosted home groups, though we didn’t lead them. That was left to the more experienced. We volunteered to help with set-up, and Children’s Ministry. We attended prayer groups and retreats. I availed myself of the healing prayer that the church offered because I needed a lot of healing. I was asked to share my story at church, for which I wrote a no-holds barred 15 minute sermonette. When I finished speaking the pastor said, half jokingly, “You’re hired”. It seemed an odd comment to me. Something was wrong. What I wanted was more of Jesus. What I was getting was more of church. Full Post >>

An interesting post from someone considering themselves “unchurched”. Link via e-church.com where Tim Bednar comments:

I guess I want the church to help the congregation discover and realize their dreams and visions, rather than always being expected to fulfill whatever the church feels is important. (Notice I make a distinction between the church and the congregation.) This is an example of how the church has one conversation and the congregation has a totally other one.

This is more prevalent in the mega-church model where CEO-pastors cast visions, then delegate strategic tasks to people who are spiritual gifted to realize this vision.

Posted on 08/10 at 11:58 AM

Comments:

Mike, you find the best stuff. Help the congregation find its dreams and visions, and how the church has one conversation and the congregation another hits the mark.(Are congegations allowed to even have conversations?) Some congregations are not aware of how many conversations occur “behind the curtain.” (Or even that there is a conversation behind the curtain)Integrity sometimes takes a beating in these situations.

Ed

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 08/10 at 05:54 PM
I actually missed a link that Bednar had posted - he linked to http://www.cluetrain.com/, which was a landmark document in the ‘net culture. Note that most of the authors have gone on to become a-list bloggers….

I actually caused mild bit of traffic to my site when I posted a version of the Cluetrain modified to talk about churches and congregations.

I think absolutely that congregations have conversations - but where they used to be hidden away in coffee shops and Russ’, they’re now on the web and searchable via Google.

Posted by Mike Boyink on 08/10 at 06:09 PM
Oh yeah,no doubt that there a lot of conversations: about the leaders, among the leaders, between some leaders and some people, etc and on and on…

The challenge is finding the delicate balance between the leadership setting purpose and direction for the organization (that’s not an inherently bad thing) and individuals being free to become who God is calling them to be within the congregation regardless of the corporate direction.

That’s always the tension between community/collective good and the individual: whether that’s a family, a village/town, a school, a church/congregation.

On my journey I’ve been on all sides of this equation. It isn’t easier or better or more righteous from any vantage point.

Maybe the collective vision the leader(s)cast has to be one that is inclusive or allows individuals to be on their own journey.

As for those “conversations?” Deadly. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. As a senior pastor, the criticism and “death of a thousand cuts” had me popping anti-depressents like breath mints, emotionally a wreck and drove me from ministry for years. Manna is my first cautious attempt at dipping my toe in the pool again. On the flip side, I’ve been an unhappy camper in a church and found myself criticizing the leadership.

Don’t know if I have any answers. Like your family—or family of origen—the relationships in the congregation/church can be a mess of painful dilemnas and unspoken feelings.

Manna. What is it? Enough grace for today. Hopefully tomorrow God will provide more grace.

Sorry for the long, rambling post, but this one struck me…

Greg

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 08/10 at 07:49 PM
Oh yeah, another thing: Mike’s original post to the article was right on. It’s WAY to easy to get “involved” in the church as a substitute for knowing Jesus and other people.

In a lot of ways I have so many regrets for all the ways I allowed ministry activities to take the place of God in my life for so many years. And even worse, for the ways I “encouraged” or cooerced others to do stuff in the church when they were looking for Jesus.

But churches are inherently users. There is a black hole of volunteer stuff to be done. Endless. Come in, bright eyed and bushy tailed and wanting Jesus: we will use you up until there is nothing left.

Again, what’s the answer? I guess the beginning is to be aware of the problem and constantly on guard against it.

At Manna we should be careful that WE don’t mistake being busy for God with knowing Christ, and that we don’t allow some of us to get used up. I’ve got my eye on a few folks who I’m concerned may be doing more than is healthy.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 08/10 at 07:56 PM
Sorry for the long, rambling post

Rambling? That aint nuttin….heck I ramble so much I drive one…;)

I need to clarify—that when the internet community / cluetrain advocates talk about conversation, they don’t inherently mean negative conversation. The “bigger picture” idea is that the connectedness of the internet is turning markets (for business) and congregations (for churches) into conversations that weren’t as easily - for the better or worse - enabled before.

Like this one.

;)

Posted by Mike Boyink on 08/10 at 08:05 PM
Greg, it’s good to hear your thoughts on this. You mentioned C.S. Lewis’ “The Screwtape Letters” this past Sunday. Sometimes I think the great deciever keeps us so busy “doin’ church” that we forget to be the church. Church busyness can be toxic to our souls. Most of this busyness is spent doing good and worthy things.(Go figure) I know where a whole room full of people(They meet on Sunday) can speak to this problem. That might be a good conversation to have? (Manna touched on this last Sunday)

Ed

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 08/10 at 08:39 PM
Mike: you’re right, I spun the wrong way off your post. See, push my buttons and I go off on a rant. But you’re right about the larger “conversation” that technology is allowing us to participate in through the blogosphere. I see it traveling to and meeting with churches around the country: there is a new, larger reality that we are becoming aware of and participating in.

Ed: let’s be careful out there, OK? Let’s agree we won’t let anyone get chewed up in the pursuit of “better” church. :)

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